First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? Okay. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? steve.christie@phmloans.com. Book now for free with CMG Booking. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. Christie then nailed a 46-yard field goal in overtime, giving the Bills their third victory of the season. They point us to Jesus Christ. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . Okay, you can start now. Okay. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. I thought about writing a book on-. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. How do we know theyre brothers? This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. And this is what I did in the opening statement. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Well, a lot to cover here. Okay. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Well, in your example, its talking about father. It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. And see, heres the thing. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. January 07, 1964. Okay. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. So at an early age, I think about around age three. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. I like you Trent. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. Thank you very much, Trent. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). He was content to let go and die a natural death. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Well start with you, Steve. Thats kind of hard. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. Probably not like any other piece of wood. Discover Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie 's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. Alright? This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. Lets take a look here. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. It is fitting, therefore its true. You have seven-, All right. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? You got five minutes, right? Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. SeanMcDowell.org. FEIN: 47-5459301. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. Im not sure what your question is. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Okay. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. So again, argument by exception. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. Trent models that approach each. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. The question for Joseph-. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. Their issue is not about Mary. Thats just being read into the text. Thank you, Steve. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. 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