Youre engaged in a lawsuit with Penn. RG: And all of us, no matter what our situation, are not completely safe from it. [2] Fierceton and her mentor reconstructed the conversation and transcribed it; the university has claimed it is inaccurate but the mentor stands by it. She got straight A's, served in student government, managed the field hockey team, played varsity soccer, and volunteered to assist with the local Special Olympics. MF: And with that, like you said, notion of: Well, theres no way that you went to private school and all of this could have still happened, or that you could be low-income now and this idea that socioeconomic status is permanent. Whereas white parents, a lot of times, it is much harder the bar is much higher to remove them from their homes because their whiteness or possibly class privilege or whatever identities that they have that might not fit a social worker or judges or whoevers involved perception of whose kids should be in the foster system. As in her case, first responders had experienced similar delays in finding and reaching the building, and difficulties removing Driver once they did due to the same accessibility issues. The father's message was forwarded to Penn's general counsel, Wendy White, who got in touch with Morrison. But that was definitely a driving force for why I decided, ultimately, to withdraw because I felt like: OK, federal prison is no joke. She didnt even know what building he had died in. And I havent been on any of the Penn websites. [19] The New York Post wrote that "[t]he case exposes the murky underbelly of elite schools like Penn. And I didnt really know any information, except for that he had had a medical emergency in class and then been pronounced dead at the hospital. So I could imagine why at some point youd be like, you know what, Im just not going to keep taking Ls here. MF: So to me it was pretty clear that it likely came from them. "[20][m] A syndicated morning radio show named Fierceton its "donkey of the day". Mackenzies critics even began nitpicking how much blood was in her hair while she was in the intensive care unit. Cause then you cant think that it could be you. Mackenzie went to a private prep school, Whitfield, in St. Louis and was an active student. But I got a bit of pressure from Penn to do that. So that was what the actual poem and personal statement was about [laughs.] And that was the end of it, right? And then very quickly turn to very specific questions about different instances of abuse. If you havent read the story yet, I highly recommend pausing this, and giving it a read first, because I try not to go over too much of the same territory in my interview with her. I took photos of the building and sent it to them, and I was connecting them with different people who were in my class, who were in his class. You know, I believe the first people who said that was the Rhodes Trust. [1]:115 As to her previous involvement with the child welfare system, Penn says Fierceton told them she was not certain, but she was referring either to the guardian ad litem appointed for her during her parents' divorce or an earlier incident when she and her biological parents were still living in Connecticut. 2020 College graduate Mackenzie Fierceton (Photo from Mackenzie Fierceton). Just a quick circling back, Im actually not sure if it was her who first reached out or if it was General Counsel Wendy White, because I later found out that they had a phone call about 36 hours after the article came out and seemed to talk pretty extensively, and then there were a lot of emails that happened. "[1]:119, Dismissal of mother's charges and expurgation of records, Role in wrongful death suit against university, In its response to Fierceton's suit, Penn quotes Fierceton as telling police as soon as they entered her hospital room after her later injury about her diary and that it would tell them everything they would need to know. I had no idea what she already knew. I identify with the FGLI umbrella term and definitely being a low-income student, but Ive never really called myself a standalone first-generation. In 2019, Fierceton testified in a court hearing that, in September 2014, her mother allegedly pushed her down a set of stairs and hit her in the face several times. students, defines first generation broadly, including students who have a strained or limited relationship with a parent who has graduated from college. That was Mackenzie Fierceton and thats our show. In the lawsuit filed on Dec. 21, Fierceton, a 2021 School of Social Policy . Like I just havent, really, there to be a lot of information about me publicly. Her mother was arrested and charged with abuse, and Mackenzie went into foster care. "Was the problem that a child who was placed into foster care and had no contact with her biological mother wasn't actually a first-generation college student? Uh, my lawyer. Our focus is not on the debate it reviews over Mackenzie Fierceton's accounts of her life, though we affirm her integrity. [5] Lovelace was also arrested and charged with sexual abuse. While her yes answer to "At any time since you turned age 13, were both your parents deceased, were you in foster care or were you a dependent or ward of the court?" I mean, youd been taking loss after loss, despite having the facts on your side. RG: Did they make that threat in writing or was that . RG: That was Mackenzie Fierceton and thats our show. [2], Wendy Ruderman, a reporter for The Philadelphia Inquirer, called Fierceton to interview her for a story about the scholarship. And I think said something along the lines of there were things missing and it was distorted. My life is over, Im in the hospital, Im at rock bottom. [2], In the early 2000s the couple went through a protracted divorce during which a guardian ad litem was appointed to represent their daughter's interests at the custody hearing. She began to realize that she had no sense of identity. And then I remembered that my teacher had told me to write a gratitude list. In retrospect, I just honestly wish I had never written about those people, but it was kind of one of those things where I was like: OK, I need to make my point. Penn again spoke with Morrison and, this time as well, the St. Louis County prosecutor who had decided to drop the charges, without informing Fierceton, which the university defended as standard practice not to identify witnesses interviewed. And so the fact that shes continued pursuing you to me kind of demonstrates the entire case. And please go and leave us a rating or a review it helps people find the show. And its no offense its not like the most profound . We want to think of it as: If you were ever rich, youre always rich; if youre ever poor, youre always poor. By the end of the year she was in a third foster home. I wasnt there for all of this, but after I went through all these interviews, that was my conclusion. Were close to done. So first-generation and/or low-income, again, is the acronym. But I also think it has something to do with the way that we understand poverty. So they heard from her and immediately they call you into a meeting with the deputy provost at the time, Beth Winkelstein . Mother and daughter both told the same stories they had earlier; Morrison depicted her daughter as "willful and intense", claiming she had bought and read many books to try to help her understand the issues she said Fierceton had. In addition to reiterating many of the themes of comments made by her and her supporters in the previous articles, including criticism of the Rhodes and Penn investigations (the former of which Grim noted she was putting air quotes around when she mentioned it), she expressed a belief that her story had triggered a defensive anxiety in women like Finkelstein and White:[4]. And its mentioned briefly. Fine. In the transcript, I wrote it was really just focused on: What happened the night you went into foster care? Like, it seemed like an airtight case from my perspective. First of all, thats one box? Have you ever heard of her case? Margulis later told The New Yorker that he had been telling the prosecutor repeatedly that Fierceton "had no credibility and made all of this up", the same theme as Morrison's many arguments in person and over the phone to other Whitfield parents. And at the time I was like: Why what? And we do know for sure that she was in touch with the university. MF: Yeah, so Penn First for the whole FGLI community. RG: And what was the first-generation community like on campus? [10], Fierceton, who outside of school had also taken on a volunteer position as a birthing doula, decided during that summer to apply for a Rhodes Scholarship to get a Ph.D. at Oxford University in England, encouraged by a classmate who had just won one himself and was impressed by her activism. [f] Fierceton felt no ambivalence about her answer. But those definitions arent anywhere to be found. Fierceton. It called attention to claims, such as the one in her application essay, that by the time she was six she "knew every police officer in my county by their first name", a claim Fierceton herself admitted was untrue and born of her fear of her biological family when she wrote it. Fierceton believes it was likely sent by Morrison or one of her close relatives. Cause then you cant think that it could be you. And she had gone to a private school growing up. Her mother had no explanation for the injuries, other than saying perhaps she had done it to herself. At Norton's request, a fellow political science colleague, Rogers Smith, who while at Yale had chaired that university's undergraduate disciplinary committee, agreed to represent Fierceton during what he called "a very unusual process". And she quickly got interest of a book deal because she was obviously such a great writer. So, to cut into the interview here real quick, I wanted to add that Mackenzie is referring to a letter sent to the Rhodes Trust in December 2020. She had not, she insisted, written her original essay with the intent of increasing her chances of admission. Ryan Grim: This weeks guest on Deconstructed is Mackenzie Fierceton, who was the subject of a recent story in The New Yorker. How much research has been done on the foster-care-to-prison-pipeline? Last edited on 10 February 2023, at 00:35, Learn how and when to remove this template message, the state's Department of Social Services, tortious interference with a business relationship, negligent infliction of emotional distress, "Verified Answer and New Matter to Plaintiff's Complaint", "How an Ivy League School Turned Against a Student", "Deconstructed: Mackenzie Fierceton on Her Battle With UPenn", "Ex Alderman Newsletter 168 And Chesterfield 113", "St. Luke's physician charged with felony child abuse", "Abuse charges against former St. Luke's physician are dropped", "Henry Lovelace, owner of Wild Horse Fitness Passes Away", "Former St. Louis woman who spent time in foster care named Rhodes Scholar", "Thousands petition U. to cut ties with Philly PD, reform militarized campus 'police state', "Penn student who aged out of foster care wins prestigious Rhodes Scholarship", "Following public outcry, Penn lifts hold on former Rhodes Scholar Mackenzie Fierceton's master's degree", "University Mourns Loss of Cameron Avant Driver", "Student loses Rhodes scholarship over allegations of lying about her foster care upbringing", "Former St. Louis-area student loses Rhodes scholarship over 'false narratives', "Student Misleads With Story of Poverty and Abuse and Wins Rhodes ScholarshipNow, the Media Is Defending Her", "Did This Rhodes Wannabe Lie About Her Background? And I turned over all this information to his widow. [2][4], After she had recovered from her seizure incident earlier that year, fellow students told her how difficult it had been for first responders to get to the basement of Caster Hall, where SP2 is based and holds most of its classes, and how difficult it had been to get her out. [2], "Family is not the people you are related to by blood," she wrote in the diary. Yeah, so Penn First for the whole FGLI community. She found Fierceton's diary at the house and read it, then interviewed teachers and administrators at Whitfield, learning of Morrison's insulting texts to Fierceton. But I guess I cant say for sure. The article by reporter Rachel Aviv was called How an Ivy League School Turned Against a Student, and it tells the story of an extraordinary battle between Mackenzie and the University of Pennsylvania. The prosecutor eventually dropped the charges and the arrest record was expunged. And where are you at school? [2], Later that year, after that first foster home turned out to be "chaotic", with Fierceton's foster sibling attempting suicide, she moved to another one. Every objective and careful reviewer of the facts in this case including the Rhodes Trust, Penns Office of Student Conduct, a faculty committee from Fiercetons graduate school at Penn, and a hearing panel consisting of faculty and students from other Penn schools concluded that Fierceton had not been truthful.. MF: Yeah, it was, things like that where I simplified all of these foster kids that youre living with a biological family who have kids, which I would say are foster siblings. The university writes: After those who knew Fierceton raised questions about her story, it was investigated not just once, but several times, and not just by Penn faculty and staff, but also the Rhodes Trust. She ruined her moms career. She had lived with her mother since her parents divorced acrimoniously during her childhood, and a guardian ad litem was appointed to represent Fierceton's interests in the proceeding, during which abuse allegations were made. [2], Fierceton was accepted at the University of Pennsylvania (commonly known as Penn) on a full scholarship, arranged through QuestBridge. But its relevant to financial aid and the student should check whatever box is going to give them most access to financial aid, which would be yes to both questions. So that was what that specific sentence in The New Yorker was referencing is this kind of condensing this group of people and to one sentence. "You can't couch-surf in a pandemic", Norton said. The notation in her transcript remains. In The New Yorker article, one teacher had written: She showed up at my classroom door with a bloodied and battered face and then fainted., RG: And then, Rachel Aviv, the reporter also quotes Sherry McClain, who was a nurse who was assigned to you, she said: She had two black eyes, and her hair was full of blood. And I think said something along the lines of there were things missing and it was distorted. Teen Mom alum Mackenzie Edwards' husband Ryan Edwards is to be arrested soon. Brandt, the Chesterfield police detective who had originally investigated the case, said later that the prosecutor never explained to her what that new evidence was. For all the readers could have known, there could have been a videotape of it happening. Yeah. Like there is more attention to systemic poverty and trying to keep children in their homes to begin with, I would say, which is important, because if you can keep kids in their homes, then theyre not in the system and facing that foster-to-prison pipeline. And what was the first-generation community like on campus? And that feels like one of them where it feels like the system is willfully misunderstanding reality in order to bend it in their direction. Im curious, having dealt with so many people along the way, who are questioning your story, how do you feel like the boxes play into this? Our producer is Zach Young. And then the other question was: Are you the first in your family to attend college? A college counselor suggested she apply through QuestBridge, a nonprofit that helps qualified students in need find schools that will give them full financial support. And those other people are kind of like the orphans that we think of in Dickensian novels. Fierceton was born August 9, 1997, under the name Mackenzie Terrell, in Danbury, Connecticut,[1] to Carrie Morrison, a physician who would later head the breast imaging department at St. Luke's Hospital in Chesterfield, where the couple lived. And so can you talk a little bit about your research? She also alleged that Penn had on many occasions failed to follow its own disciplinary policies in its investigation of her.[16]. [2], Morrison retained William Margulis, a former member of Whitfield's board who had sent four of his children there, including one of her daughter's classmates, as her attorney. Fierceton told the story that, according to her diary, her mother had told her to tellthat she had tripped while playing with the family dogs and bruised herself on the corner of a nearby table. And it just felt pretty devastating to me, because for so long I hid everything, Id been so ashamed, and I already felt so much guilt in coming forward then. Fellow students, their parents and Whitfield faculty also noticed signs which led them to suspect abuse. As an anonymous letter writer revealed, however, she was also the privately educated child of a radiologist, brought up in an affluent suburb. Enough bruises? Yes, it may be true that institutions like UPenn give students like Fierceton opportunities because of their story, but that does not mean her narrative is theirs for the taking. And when will you have finished up your Ph.D.? And Im like: I dont know what else I could give them that would possibly convince them if their belief is as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old was journaling about my experience of abuse and hiding it in an air vent, and it was actually secretly all a plan to like accuse my mother of abuse and go into foster care so I could have a sad story. Like one of them was describing a biological child in a house as another foster child, and something about a half-brother or something.What were those and how were those errors kind of deployed against you? She told Brandt it was her mother, and asked her to keep Morrison from coming to her room. Its account focused on the Rhodes controversy, discussing her and Driver's suits near the end, and recalling some other recent instances of academic dishonesty, including one 2009 Harvard student whose largely fabricated high school records were only discovered when he had applied for a Rhodes Scholarship. Whereas a social worker comes into a poor home and looks around and sees just the normal poverty that our system has foisted on people and says: Oh, well, clearly this is somebody that needs to be stripped out of here. And theyll openly talk about this. [2] Her father, Billy Terrell,[1] had been an actor in soap operas. I didnt encounter many of them in the two years that I was living in foster families. Because processes become Kafkaesque very quickly. RG: Anything in particular jump out at you after having read back over that transcript? But there was another definition that was also along those lines that I fit, that was, again, public on the website. [Laughs.] Is it as well explored territory as a school-to-prison pipeline? Fierceton was mentioned in the complaint as having experienced similar issues following her seizure; she was deposed in the suit in March 2021, the month before the university's investigation led her to withdraw from the Rhodes Scholarship. How do I do that in a succinct way when theres a very short word count and youre trying to fit everyones experience in?And so I didnt really think about: Oh, I need to say: This foster sibling who was in the foster care system. "Fuck thatI don't have [a family]" she said later. And then as the different internships, and then I went to get my masters in social work and all of this happened, I started to see that continue in different capacities while I was in different roles, seeing that theme in this relationship between foster care and the criminal justice system. Yeah, it was, things like that where I simplified all of these foster kids that youre living with a biological family who have kids, which I would say are foster siblings. "[2], That feeling was not mutual, Fierceton came to suspect. So they didnt ask about that in this meeting. And eventually they filed a big wrongful death lawsuit in August 2020. It's a hard scholarship to win, but Fierceton. And so youre becoming rather inconvenient to the university at that point , I would assume, which plays into the way that universities and elite structures think of diversity, I think. Fierceton wished that she had been more willing to correct mistaken impressions that she might have made and at the time "just kind of crumbled behind the pressure. So Im not sure how much could have been missing. And that was the end of it, right? RG: And so, like I mentioned earlier, I dont want to go over too much of the history that led up to your battle with Penn and with the Rhodes trust, because people can find that in The New Yorker article that came out recently, you went over that in some pretty decent length; in Katie Courics podcast in a recent interview there. He explained that Morrison had had no prior criminal record, Fierceton's complaints about her mother's boyfriend and prescription drug abuse had been unsubstantiated, her cousin had witnessed no abuse while living with the Morrisons at a time prior to the incident, and he had learned that Fierceton "had regular temper tantrums, beyond the normal range for an adolescent". She felt as if it might have been an attempt to intimidate her. And we entered the meeting and it immediately felt really hostile to me. MF: At first there was actually, there was contention. What foster family were you with in X,Y, Z year? The New Yorker reported that Fierceton reported this to Penn's campus police, fearing that her mother had somehow found out where she was living. Thats the reality of it, but we dont want to think of it that way. She expressed some concern to Penn staff that if she won, the media attention might incite her mother and her family to attack her reputation, and expressed on a form she filed with Penn as part of the process a concern of hers that FGLI students such as herself were "pressured to be someone they were not amidst their application process." Im part of a wrongful death lawsuit that was filed in August, 2020. RG: Penn didnt respond to a request for comment, but in its response to Mackenzies lawsuit, they write: Penn denies that there are accessibility problems with the Caster Building which contributed to Mackenzies medical emergency or to [Cameron] Drivers death. And I was having flashbacks to cross-examinations and depositions Id given about this which later made sense, because we found out that Wendy White had spoken with one of Carries defense lawyers. But I agreed to come into this Zoom meeting and this was the last day of November 2020. Mackenzie Fierceton, 23, originally from St. Louis, Missouri, possesses a bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and planned to utilize the scholarship to pursue a Ph.D. in social . Just like some basic questions [laughs] and then a lot of detailed questions about my application. And now they have to face the fact that someone who looks like them, who shares all these identities with them, could be the source of all of this harm. Mackenzie Fierceton has lost her Rhodes scholarship and her University of Pennsylvania master's degree is being held after an anonymous tipster called out alleged inaccuracies in her school and scholarship applications. Right. And I told them I only have a half-hour, because Im working, Im in class, and were going to go through all of this. She shared with the former screenshots of online chats and printouts of emails with representatives of the, The Rhodes Trust report found that the Penn police had no records of any calls to them from Fierceton about this. [2], The fine was later withdrawn after it was found to conflict with a provision of the university's charter prohibiting the imposition of fines in cases involving academic integrity. Two other women he was involved with had also reported him to law enforcement). And I think psychologically one way people feel safer about it is to say: No, that happens to other people. box, it's like you have to fit yourself in, saying: Are you the first in your family to attend? Because processes become Kafkaesque very quickly. Within days of the article being published, the universitys general counsel was in touch with Mackenzies mother. Why would I do that? And, honestly, first-generation is never something Ive really identified with fully. Also, there was a delay in getting the Penn Police there because they didnt know where the building was. She was diagnosed with post-concussion syndrome and released after three weeks. RG: Like, those two things dont fit together. [3], After the interview White emailed Morrison about how it went; she wrote back regretting that Fierceton continued to tell the same story. What happened the night you ended up in foster care? His master's level university, Ivy College Pennsylvania, also failed to grant him the acquired master's degree . RG: as a kid. [2], Some of those Morrison talked with did believe her; a classmate of Fierceton's recalled people likening her to the protagonist of the film Gone Girl, about a Missouri woman who disappears in order to avenge herself on an adulterous husband, whom she makes it appear killed her. [1]:95, Judge Kristine Allen Kerr ultimately held for Morrison. Like, I dont have the precise statistics in front of me, but if you asked people to guess at the number of people who will experience, say, two years of poverty in their life, people will miss it by magnitudes. [2], Fierceton remained in the hospital, where DSS ordered her placed in protective custody. [H]onestly, first-generation is never something I've really identified with fully. There were some pretty basic errors, such as my name, my birth name, and my birth place, and claiming that I didnt have a sibling, that I wasnt low-income, a lot of facts that were pretty easily disputed. And so thats the low-income box. We want to think of it as: If you were ever rich, youre always rich; if youre ever poor, youre always poor. Mackenzie Fierceton has lost her Rhodes Scholarship and her University of Pennsylvania master's degree is being held after an anonymous tipster called out alleged inaccuracies in her school. And again, people, including Penn administrators, have the perception of I think the stereotype and my friend Anea Moore, whos a Rhodes Scholar and graduate of Penn who founded Penn first or co-founded it had a really great quote in The New Yorker about we arent all, quote-unquote something along the lines of like impoverished, inner city kids who go to crumbling public schools as the wider media portrays us to be. And especially, again, like these stereotypes of black and brown, low-income families, the knee-jerk reaction is like: Oh, well, theyre unequipped to be a parent. [2] They learned that SP2 had no real protocol for an emergency situation in the building. And Im glad that people are having the kinds of systemic discussions that are so key to all of this. But it was definitely something I saw happening sort of this funneling of kids from the child welfare to criminal justice system. RG: And so if its a well-educated white girl from a private school, thats way too close to home for a lot of these elites. Later in the year she wrote online that the name change gave her "ownership of her identity" and a sense of agency she had not had before in her life. She was one of only 32 high school students selected from a pool of 2300 applicants. RG: Is that what sent you into a surreal state? So one question was: Are you from a low-income family? 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